Curse

Missmelady · Mar 04, 2009, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Hello,

First off I do not want this to turn into a flame fest nor do I want this to turn into a my build is better then that build bs that usually happens.

After countless hours of vanquishing with discord way I decided to try ray way. Needless to say i was very thrilled with the results and now run rayway for the remainder of tyria that I have left ( All ready did nf and factions) Below is a reason for running both of them and the negatives of running both of them.

Ray way Positives
1. Still does not make monsters scatter so you can dump as much aoe as you want and they will keep on standin in it.
2. Monks support skills are amazing and with a little fine tuning can make it so you never die.
3. Very fast and effective killer if you have a tank that gets all agro and knows how to tank properly.
4. Coolest skill animation in the game.

Discord way Postives
1. Alot of meat shields from minions.
2. Very fast once minions are up.

Ray way Negatives
1. No meat shields so the tank better be good.
2. Animation gets annoying after awhile.

Discord Negatives
1. Till minions are up team can take alot of pressure
2. Single target spike/pressure damage in large groups of enemies could result in numerous party wipes till the group is dead.

Now on to the more fun part and what I have been doing when I vanquish with a friend of mine. (Note to readers: I am a monk and my friend is a ranger)

I have begun to do some testing of running 3 of the ray way monk bars as my hero's, myself as an ursan just for tanking and kd purposes (i know i know- no need to flame me) And her brining 3 of the discord necro's, and she I beleive runs a burning arrow build if im not mistaken. Why do I run half of each team? Because once minions are up we have meat shields that I really have no need to tank and we have aoe + the ray's automatically do a condition that stays on them for 15 seconds 3 seconds of burning each time they get hit by it get it by it for 5 seconds 5x3= 15 yada yada. Needless to say its aoe dmg with a single target spike= big groups drop really really fast.

My questions to you guys is which do you run? Why? and what are the benifits to both in your own opinions?

Sora267 · Mar 04, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

On my necro, I've been running 3 Rayway heros with myself as an AotL MM...it's the best of both worlds!

But on my other characters, I usually run two Rayway heros and one AotL hero, because the AotL hero more than makes up for the lack of a third Rayway hero. I then usually bring healer + prot henchie, a melee henchie, and an interrupt henchie.

faraaz · Mar 04, 2009, 04:49 PM // 16:49

One point you missed out on is that discordway relies on hexes and conditions. That means stuff like Shadow of Fear, Enfeebling Blood, Weaken Armor, Suffering etc etc...all of which adds additional pressure against the enemies, particularly in HM. Rayway brings none of that.

Also, Discordway has the best of both worlds AoE ([putrid bile][death nova]+[animate bone minions]) AND Single Target damage ([Discord]). Rayway, on the other hand, only has AoE...[castigation signet] doesnt hold a candle to the stuff you can do with Discordway.

No bone minions in HM is kinda a suicide pact without uber defense like imbagons and cons.

And finally the beauty of it. You could run 7 N/Rt healers packing discord, and as long as your player char can maintain a condition + hex on the called target, you have all the heals you need and ubar dmg too.

Not so much with Smiteway.

Disclaimer: Because these forums are riddled with ridiculously pedantic q.q'ers, this note is necessary. I'm not saying you SHOULD run 7 N/Rt Healers...I'm just saying Discordway is flexible enough that you can do that if you want to.

Alex Dimitri · Mar 04, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

I run Discordway for fast faction gain for my guild.I did my Legendary Vanquisher title in "old days" before Subway, Discordway or any other for that matter, now i sometimes help friends and guildies with VQ and half of team is usual Discordway (it really speed things up).
This Rayway u mentioned i didn`t try from very obvious reason i`m Necro so i can`t tank which makes the whole thing absolete in my case!
But i`ve got interested by your split build Discord/Ray so i`m gonna try that with some guildies!
As far it goes for Discordway i`m in love with that build it simply KICKS ASS and saves lot of nerves and time to people that don`t have much of either (ME

) !!!

riktw · Mar 04, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

another downside for rayway is the name
some people call it RoJway, some rayway and some smiteball.
i still run RoJway becouse i need to get master of whispers

dejong12 · Mar 04, 2009, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Where can I find the build Rayway?

Spiritz · Mar 04, 2009, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Rojway is ok but can have drawbacks - heros targetting to early/late on foes and sometimes its havin to wait for recharge.
Some stage there will be a gr8 rojway build that is finetuned , sabway and discordway will be no1 favs till that time comes.
Tho obviously rojway will own against undead anyday vs discord/sabway.
Its also gd to have roj/sabway in a few areas when 2 human team - meatshields help keep foes in 1 place lol

Captain Bulldozer · Mar 04, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

One BIG point that the OP missed in his post as well... The discord heroes bein necros means they have an extremely good, non-removable energy management source, i.e. soul reaping. The better Ray-way alternatives will use mesmer skills for energy gain, but most of these are much less efficient than soul reaping + minions.

Still, I think Ray-way could easily be very good for vanquishing tyria. Tyria seems to have a lot of undead foes, especially around Kryta, so Rayway would be doubly effective there. It should also work reasonably well in the desolation, though it might lack healing for places like Joko's Domain, etc. I do kind of like the idea of 3-discord, 3-wayray heroes for general usage though, but I haven't fully explored it as an option, so maybe I'm missing something.

Bug John · Mar 04, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sora of the Divine

On my necro, I've been running 3 Rayway heros with myself as an AotL MM...it's the best of both worlds!

But on my other characters, I usually run two Rayway heros and one AotL hero, because the AotL hero more than makes up for the lack of a third Rayway hero. I then usually bring healer + prot henchie, a melee henchie, and an interrupt henchie.

same here

but I usually use a standard jagged bones necro

roj (you have to micro it to be effective) + good aggro + exploding minions = huge aoe damage

there are some areas where rojway is clearly better : no corpses, corpse denial, undead mobs

in other areas, you'll just have to adapt to what you'll have to kill

discordway maybe be easier to use, but I find it quite boring with my assassin

Eragon Zarroc · Mar 04, 2009, 06:00 PM // 18:00

discord way for destroying pesky single targets and rayway for exciting explosions of groups and fun visuals =D. mixture of the two is sure to do very well and u get the best of both worlds =D

Shadow Own · Mar 04, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

i see this alot different
imo rayway is only strong if the enemies pressure you, so RoD and the smite condi/hex are very good, discordway is more relying on your own team and less on the enemies. in terms of damage, it doesnt make much difference

Skyy High · Mar 04, 2009, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Rayway for areas with lots of enemies that don't drop bodies, lots of undead, where I need some strong targetted prot, or areas where AoE is really good to have. Discordway most everywhere else.

Zodiak · Mar 04, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Discord

Pros
- Damage
  - Potentially up to 30 minions (Usually at least 12+)
  - Mass Sing Target AoE through Minions as they spread out to dmg
  - Minon bombs go Boom! (Large AoE damage)
  - Minion bombs Poison everything (Degen)
  - More Bombs from Putrid Bile (AoE & Degen)
  - Discord (Huge dmg to Called target in short time, very hard to heal through)
- Reduction
  - Hexes from the Discord bars Disable Ennemies (slower Attack Speed and Lower Attributes)
  - Spirits That reduce the duration of Conditions (especially nasty ones like Desease)
- Healing
  - Moderate to Medium Healing x3
  - Condition Removal through healing
- Protection
  - Large dmg reduction as minions take the hits
  - Aegis (Massive party damage reduction)
  - Prot Spirit (Awesome protection for Front liners)
- Energy
  - Soul Reaping!!! (Triggers on Ennemy Death, Triggers on Minion Death, Triggers on Party member Deaths to a lesser extent)
Cons
- Things can go bad if the MM dies
- Killing can get a problem in heavy hex removal areas
- Energy can get a problem in long battles
- Defenses rely on Minions
- No hex removal

Rayway

Pros
- Damage
  - Ray of Judgement (Celestial Ox's Space Ion Cannon)
  - Smite Condition (Nice condition removal with +AoE dmg)
  - Smite Hex (Nice Hex removal with +AoE dmg)
  - Remersal of Damage (Meh)
- Reduction
  - None
- Healing
  - AoE Healing
- Protection
  - Aegis (AwesomeSauce, multiple heroes carrying it depending on the Rayway team)
  - Prot Spirit (More AwesomeSauce)
- Energy
  - Castigation signet
Cons
- Energy can be a problem if ennemies not attacking (No energy from Castigation Signet)
- Party is more vulnerable to damage
- Slow recharging Rays
- Perma Blind (if Front liner)

Shadow K N I F E · Mar 04, 2009, 09:12 PM // 21:12

i dont run either, ive been running an sh nuker, jagged mm(a real mm, with more than just bone minions :P) and a SoD prot monk for the last year and a half. served me well through 30 max on my ranger and another 28 on my sin. on my sin who as of late is my main char just cuz i play her more i run either meobius/blossom or temple/blossom depending on the kind of enemies in an area, both builds with crit agility and save yourselves. the IAS combined with dual attacks allows me to keep up sy just as much as an imbagon, that combined with the SoD hero, a healer hench and body blocking from minions is more than enough to keep party alive. I can spike any regular target (non-boss) down with 1-2 combos(taking ~3 seconds) and i can keep the combos going from target to target. ive never ran discord or RoJ for vanqing, or even sab for that matter, but ive ran with other people who use them and i never had a liking for the builds. but imo my spiking dmg is about =to discord from the 3 heros combined. the nuker hero combined with ele henches is just like having RoJ heros minus the armor ignoring. and the party wide prot from my sy and the SoD heros build along with w/e the monk hench uses is just like having an imbagon on your team or using consumables(which i dont use btw). it wasnt AS easy on my ranger due to less dmg and lack of sy but it can be used with any main prof to vanq any area or do any mission(with some minor adjustments depending on which) in the game. pros: all of the above. cons:*starts to think if there are any* idk if i was only supposed to post if i used either of the 2 builds said in the topic but this is what i use

sosycpsycho · Mar 04, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow K N I F E

i dont run either,

Yeah but this is Discord way Verse Rayway, so thats not really on topic and irrelevant.

I believe all Builds in Guild wars are conditional and that the more of them you can run effectively, the more effective you are. Minions combined with RoJ sounds viable due to the fact the minions will keep the mobs bunched up.

I think as far as comparing one to the other its Apples and Oranges I would not take a Discord-Way Into Shards of Orr, and I would not Take RoJ-way into a place with lots of Vow of Silence or such that would limit the heros ability to use it properly.

I think the key answer is synergy, its simple math. What is the enemies weakness for the areas? How can I stack as much of this into a team as possible. The Discord and Roj both proven effective in providing good pressure in HM.

I feel like in the end though the discord way is more flexible, it can be ran as a discord spike(with no minions,more rit healing, more spike/hex) it can be ran as a full minion team with triple shambling (Produces bleeding speeding up the spike from discord) and it can be run in the typical wiki style that is more or less of a mix.

I think it was said above 100% that the only thing that makes the discord way really shine over ROJ is the simple fact heros cant manage energy, and the discord takes care of that for you.

Ariena Najea · Mar 04, 2009, 10:05 PM // 22:05

I have had great success with both, and have come up with a simple way of determining which I use.

For nearly all 4 man areas, I find that RoJ spam works better than Discord spam.
For nearly all 6 man areas, I find that they work equally well.
For nearly all 8 man areas, I find that Discord spam works better than RoJ spam.

There have been some good points in this thread, and one that most players who use RoJ seem to miss is that you need a good tank (or MM) to maximize effectiveness. Also note, in areas that have large mobs of enemies (especially melee) that RoJ seems to do better due to its AoE nature. In areas that have a higher percent of spellcasters, Discord out-performs. In either case, I typically bring a single hero as a [[Jagged Bones] MM to help hold aggro and provide support.

Saraneth · Mar 04, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missmelady

Very fast and effective killer if you have a tank that gets all agro and knows how to tank properly.

Ray way Con: tank

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missmelady

Single target spike/pressure damage in large groups of enemies could result in numerous party wipes till the group is dead.

Discord setups have their own armor-ignoring aoe dmg. As mentioned, they're also equip with conditions suited to crowd control.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiak

Things can go bad if the MM dies

As you pointed out, discord teams usually spread their minion summon skills across bars; thus, the "MM" is actually a joint operation among the nec heroes. For the "MM" to die, a party wipe would have to be in order. A party wipe is not a con, as it often stems from player error.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiak

Defenses rely on Minions

Don't discount conditions and prots, as indicated by your "Pros" section. I'm not sure why you moved to contradict yourself with the "Cons."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiak

No hex removal

There's nothing preventing you from adding hex removal to your N/Mo discords.

smilingscar · Mar 04, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saraneth

There's nothing preventing you from adding hex removal to your N/Mo discords.

Exactly. I've been having a pretty easy time of it after I made my minion bomber go healing prayers rather than prot and giving him the two Spotless skills. The extra healing I get from dwayna's sorrow is pretty sweet too.

In case you couldn't tell, I swing Discordway. I like it best on my Ele because I can bring a lot of utility with wards, blind, or even maelstrom and not have to worry too much if I over extend my energy a bit.

Chthon · Mar 05, 2009, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Rayway, Con: Relies entirely on abusing an AI bug that is likely to be fixed in the near future.

So I think Discordway wins this round. (Not that I happen to think much of Discordway...)

daze · Mar 05, 2009, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Rayway Pro: Massive undead hurt. Clearing Shards of Orr is like clearing presearing.